Preaching Today: A Discussion with Jared Wilson and Tony Merida
Posted: August 17, 2011 Filed under: Gospel, Interviews, Pastoral Resources 6 Comments »I have asked two brothers of mine to answer a few questions in hopes of providing a resource and encouragement to men entrusted with preaching the Word of God in our culture.
The Panel:
Jared Wilson is the lead pastor of Middletown Springs Community Church in Middletown Springs, Vermont and the author of Your Jesus is Too Safe and Gospel Wakefulness (releasing October 2011). He also blogs at the popular Gospel-Driven Church and has written Bible study material for LifeWay.
-
Tony Merida is the founding pastor of Imago Dei Church in Raleigh, North Carolina and Associate Professor of Preaching at Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary. He is also the author of Faithful Preaching and Orphanology.
BRANDON: In light of the many aspects of church life (i.e. Bible studies, small groups, age-specific classes/ministries, evangelism, worship through music, etc.), is preaching to the group-at-large from the stage/pulpit the most important? Why or why not?
JARED: I don’t know if I would classify it as “most” important, but I’d certainly classify it as indispensable, necessary, and vitally important. The Bible prescribes and we need the Scriptures proclamationally delivered — with authority, with exposition, with prophetic strength. This can be done one-on-one or in smaller group settings, of course, but we see both under the old covenant and the new covenant the people of God gathered to hear the word of God. Think of Moses’ addressing of the people after hearing from God all the way through to Ezra preaching to those gathered in Nehemiah to Jesus’ sermons and the addresses of the apostles in the church’s court-gatherings. The pattern is not either/or in terms of how the word of God is delivered to believers but both/and, and we have plenty of Scriptural examples of proclamational preaching from one person to a large group, enough to see it as biblically normative and therefore contemporarily necessary.
We have always needed the word of God delivered to us this way, but I think culturally speaking today we need in a peculiar way a pastoral voice under the mantle of God’s authority delivering “thus saith the Lord” to us. We are very much drenched in a “did God really say?” society, and some of the ways churches today downplay preaching or turn it into conversational sharing or what-have-you lose the gospel-shape of preaching, which is proclamational and one-directional.
Mark Driscoll has some helpful to things to say on this subject in relation to proclamational pulpit preaching as the “air war” and the day-to-day matters of personal discipleship, fellowship, counseling, and the all-encompassing participation in the mission of God as the “ground war.”
TONY: I agree with Jared. We should work to do both “the air war” and “ground war” well. It seems that some (extreme) groups pay little attention to one of these two.
For some, preaching has no place in church life. They think the church should just have dialogue, or groups, or meet in a bar and talk theology. I want to see more emphasis on public proclamation, practicing 1 Tim. 4:13. Public proclamation is patterned for us in Scripture, and public proclamation has the “life-changing-on-the-spot” potential because God saves people through the preaching of the gospel.
On the other hand, there is a group that has such a high view of preaching that they give very little thought to how to do the ground war: how to disciple, train elders, plant churches, reach unreached people groups, care for orphans and widows, etc. Ideally, the church is led from the pulpit with faithful exposition and application of biblical texts, and then ministries are developed and deployed to live out these truths. To do both, public proclamation and practical ministry well, serious attention must be given to both.
BRANDON: Over the course of your ministry, what has been your most consistent focus in regards to how you prepare and ultimately preach a sermon?
TONY: My main focus is that that I want to take the listeners for a swim in the text. I want us to immerse ourselves in Scripture, and my desire is particularly to exalt Jesus as the hero of the Bible – and by extension as the hero of every sermon. I want people to walk away every week and say, “What a great Savior” not “What a great sermon.”
To do this, I use a five step method for preparation that is articulated in Faithful Preaching: (1) study the text, (2) unify the redemptive theme, (3) construct an outline that supports the theme, (4) add the functional elements within each point (explanation, application, illustration), and (5) add an introduction and response.
In terms of mechanics, I want to make sure every sermon is a coherent whole, built around one dominant (redemptive) idea, and then drive that idea through the body of the sermon, pointing people to Jesus.
JARED: I find this very helpful. I think you’re right on the money. In particular, I think what is often missing in a lot of preaching and missing in a lot of instruction or shepherding of preaching is the ability to “feel” Scripture. So I like your words on immersion and swimming.
Preaching ought to be exultational, an act of worship on the preacher’s part. Many preachers have already discovered that their congregations don’t get excited about what their preacher tells them to get excited about but instead about what their preacher is evidently and obviously himself excited about. Our people will start to see how God’s proclamational initiative in saving us through Jesus Christ provokes doxological astonishment.
BRANDON: Tony, you are in a unique position in that you teach on preaching in the academic arena. Are there significant benefits to studying preaching academically, or is more of a “born with it or not” gift?
TONY: I begin the first day of Bible Exposition class (the basic preaching class) with a brief talk on “The Making of a Preacher.” I tell them that there seem to be about seven things that shape guys into effective preachers. Most of them involve the work of God and human responsibility, but there are a few important things to learn in an “academic setting.”
- Love for Scripture. I think the Word should drive us to the pulpit, instead of the pulpit driving us to the Word. Good preaching is overflow … an overflow of love for God’s Gospel. Hopefully, in class I can stir up a love for Scripture by the way I handle the Word and speak of the Word, but ultimately, this is a personal dynamic between the student and God.
- Gifts. Obviously, “I can’t put in what God has left out!” Not everyone is gifted to preach. That’s okay; we need guys who are gifted in other areas as well in more priestly and kingly positions.
- Experience. I can’t give students this either, with the exception of a few reps in preaching class. Guys need to be preaching a lot to be effective. Driscoll says in Vintage Church that a guy needs 200-300 sermons before he’s a decent preacher.
- Mentor. I can’t do this either, with the exception of the nine or ten guys that I try to mentor in our elder training program. For some students, these mentors may be from a distance, and for some, they may be a “dead mentor” (ala John Piper and Jonathan Edwards). Preferably, in my opinion, you have all three: life on life mentor, a mentor from a distance, and a dead mentor.
- Models. I really can’t do this in class either, with the exception of showing some sermon videos in class. But I do try to help guide students toward pastoral-theologians that they can learn from, like Jared Wilson.
- Character. This goes with #1, but is a bit different. Here, I’m talking about having a life that reflects a love for Scripture. People need to see the pastor exemplifying his teaching. I can help cultivate love and holiness by emphasizing spiritual disciplines in class, but once again, students must accept responsibility for pursuing God and exemplifying Christ.
- Instruction. Here’s where I try to be of most help to aspiring preachers in class. There are things that students need to learn like: how to exegete a passage of Scripture, how to incorporate biblical theology into expository preaching, how to apply the text in a Gospel-centered manner instead of a moralistic manner, how to preach Christ from the Old Testament, how to prepare a sermon manuscript, prepare a series, look for sermon helps, and on and on. While a seminary is not the only place one could learn these things, it is one place.
With this list, it’s evident that one can’t simply take my preaching class and believe that they’ll become a great preacher. Nope. I can’t promise that at all. I work hard at #7, and help with some of the others, but it’s certainly not all about the classroom. Beyond these matters, I also begin with the caveat that a lot in preaching is “mysterious” and that I can’t explain all the spiritual dynamics involved in preaching. But this list is my humble stab at trying to articulate some of the key things that seem to be present in the lives of effective preachers.
JARED: Tony, you’re too kind, but I think I can be extremely helpful especially in providing examples of what *not* to do. ;-)
Love the stuff on “mysterious.” We’ve all heard guys who’ve been preaching for multiple decades who sound like they’re reading a toaster manual. So I think giftedness and personal investment in the text play as big a role in preaching as technical and exegetical know-how. Of course, excellent preachers don’t start out excellent and we are all improving over time. But guys with the gift find that muscle getting stronger with use and having better reflexes.
The other side to this, however, is that the power of the gospel that works through the preacher also works in spite of the preacher. And I’m sure we’ve all experienced examples of our weak, foolish, tired sermon being no hindrance to God’s word stirring or changing or convicting or comforting our hearers. We have the privilege of getting better at preaching as we go, but we also have the freedom to know it doesn’t ultimately depend on our ability, rhetorical or otherwise.
BRANDON: With the Internet and media outlets that consume our world today, people have more access than ever before to various worldviews and areas of thought. Should apologetics be a large part of preaching in the 21st century?
JARED: I suppose it depends on what you mean by “large part.” I think apologetics is important, and some preachers/teachers are more gifted in this area than others. For my part, I don’t do a lot of apologetics in my preaching and find it more at home in personal conversations and small group settings. I make some exceptions in sermons — for instance, I preach the resurrection quite often, but when I preach on it at Easter time, I typically include some historical and logical evidences for Jesus’ bodily resurrection, not just to encourage believers in their faith but also because we are more likely to have unbelieving visitors at that time who might find the evidences challenging.
But in general I don’t deal in apologetics in my preaching because — again, speaking *personally* here — I find myself being led by that into a “let me convince you” kind of mode that I don’t find is the primary focus of preaching. I want to proclaim the truth and let the Spirit convince.
But, again, I find apologetics generally helpful and we have used materials from Josh McDowell, Ravi Zacharias, and others in our church and found them helpful. Most recently we had a group studying Tim Keller’s *The Reason for God* and they found it both helpful toward their conversations with skeptics and critics — who can be quite hostile and tenacious in our neck of the woods — and strengthening of their own faith.
TONY: I think it is very important for preachers to consider the presence of competing worldviews in the audience as they preach. As Keller says, we tend to answer the questions of the people with whom we are talking. And if we are only talking to believers, our preaching will become “ghettoized,” that is, the preacher will tend to address “insiders” only. Few outsiders will show up. But if people hear that a pastor is addressing the questions of skeptics, doubters, and atheists, then they will come – either because they themselves are interested, or because their believing friends will bring them. Keller has really challenged me on this. It doesn’t mean we can’t preach through books of the Bible, or even that we can’t focus on believers; it simply means we need to address some “outsider questions” weekly in our preaching. This requires reading very widely and also intentionally talking with non-believers. Keller says most sermons prepared by seminary students are not any good because they are aimed at other seminary students. I would agree with this, with the exception of those students who are out in the culture talking with people.
The way this works is basically to ask questions as you are working through your text, “what part of this passage would a non-believer reject?” Perhaps this would include something about the presence of warfare in the OT, the idea of wrath, or the exclusivity of the gospel. I think it is very important to address these issues as they appear in the weekly sermon text. Too many pastors (and I am guilty of this) never stop to ask, “What would [insert the skeptic at the coffee shop] not understand or believe about this passage?” Another tip I would give is to address the skeptic in the introduction of the sermon, and to let them know that you are aware of their objections and questions. Mark Dever does this really well. A final note would be to remember to argue appropriately. If you are going to challenge a worldview, you can’t just throw bombs at it. You need to get inside it, understand it, sympathize with it, and then show how it falls flat, and that the gospel is the only answer. You will not connect with the skeptic by misrepresenting their view and spouting “hater-aid.”
None of these ideas require that you totally re-vamp your preaching to do “apologetic preaching,” as much as it means that you prepare your sermon with competing worldviews in mind every week.
__
For another great discussion, see: Christians and Internet Presence
Christians and Internet Presence: A Roundtable with Wax, McCoy, Wilson, and Smith
Posted: January 9, 2011 Filed under: Church, Daily Life, Gospel, Interviews, Pastoral Resources 16 Comments »In attempt to look at the practicality and benefits of social media and blogging for Christians, three friends who have experience with popularity in the blogging and social media world (with 4-digit Twitter followers and top 100 Christian blogs) joined me to discuss. It is my aim that this discussion would help you personally and the Church as a whole consider the Kingdom implications of blogging and social media.
For another great discussion, see: Preaching Today
The Panel:
Trevin Wax
BLOG: Kingdom People
TWITTER: trevinwax
Steve McCoy
BLOG: Reformissionary
TWITTER: stevekmccoy
Jared Wilson
BLOG: Gospel-Driven Church
TWITTER: jaredcwilson
Brandon Smith
BLOG: Modern March
TWITTER: BrandonSmith85
___
In an age when everyone has a presence on the internet, should Christians consider blogging? And if so, what should they aim for?
What should we aim for? Generally speaking, the glory of God and the good of the church. That’s general, you say, so not so helpful. But to get more specific would require me to make rules that might not apply to all blogs. Some blogs are intended to be challenging for church leaders. Other blogs try to provide helpful book reviews to people who want to read more. Some blogs are personal commentaries sprinkled with insights into the Christian life. Other blogs link to good content on the web. I think a Justin Taylor has a specific aim quite different than say, Tim Challies. Justin is more a curator of content, whereas Tim is a creator of content. The specific aims are different, but I think both guys are trying to serve the church in their own way.
*BRANDON SMITH: The ultimate aim, as Trevin so perfectly stated is “the glory of God and the good of the church.” To me, this even includes the Christian who isn’t necessarily blogging about Christianity. If a Christian wants to start a sports blog, family blog, or random photos blog then they should do so with clear Biblical ethics and practice.
There is a cultural myth that states that God is separate from our work, hobbies, etc. There is nothing further from the truth because God is the God of our ENTIRE lives, not just our “spiritual” life. With that in mind, whatever we do on a blog or social network should still reflect Christ and not place you below reproach. Are you perfect? No, and that isn’t my point. But, it goes without saying that blogging in a way that is sinful or causes your brothers/sisters to stumble is not wise.
*JARED WILSON: I agree, and I really like Trevin’s emphasis on how the blog world is not a big deal. I encourage bloggers, especially those who are well-known to somewhat well-known, to have close friends who simply don’t care. They don’t read, aren’t interested, don’t care. I would encourage this extra especially to well-known Christian bloggers who pastor churches or have book deals or what-have-you. Surround yourself with people who are unimpressed by anything that happens online. Maybe find some who don’t even own a computer!
*STEVE MCCOY: Blogging can be kind of whatever you want it to be. A Christian may want to start a blog in the hope of generating revenue for their kids’ college education by putting up good online deals for pots and pans. Whatever, have fun, make some cash. But I’m guessing you mean a “Christian blog” in which someone says God-stuff. Fair enough.
___
In an article from Fast Company, the assertion was made that social media (and Twitter in particular) is not an effective tool for influence due mainly to the short shelf life of status’ and massive amount of users. Can social media truly have a positive influence on Christianity, both locally and worldwide?
*JARED WILSON: I may be a terrible person to ask this question, because I don’t spend much time thinking about how much influence social media has. I suppose if I were trying to be a professional blogger (or tweeter) or made a daily connection between my blogging/tweeting and promoting my writing, I would. But my basic reaction to the Fast Company appraisal of social media’s lack of influence is: okay.
*STEVE MCCOY: Yes, no question. It’s just a tool for communication and relationships. Tweets pass away, but Twitterers remain. Each tweet I read impacts me, develops some aspect of my relationship with the author, etc. Couldn’t we be answering this same question about phone calls? For me social media isn’t about permanence of what is said but the permanence of those saying it.
In the debate over “Christian Hollywood,” there are two sides: Those who believe that any sort of fame for a Christian is idolatrous or prideful and those who believe that fame is good if used as a platform for Jesus. Is fame something that Christians should avoid or embrace?
*BRANDON SMITH: “Christian Hollywood” in and of itself is nothing new to the church. Men like Charles Spurgeon donned billboards in England and the duo of George Whitefield and John Wesley preached to packed churches and pastures. Today, however, it is definitely at its height. With media the way it is, Christians can become famous through books, podcasts, blogs, megachurches, and getting on CNN like John MacArthur, Rick Warren, and Al Mohler. We also see role models such as Tim Tebow rise up in pop culture representing Jesus, and representing Him well. In all of these examples, there has been an extremely positive impression left on Christianity as a whole, in my opinion. Of course, the flip side is watching the painful fall of pastors’ public ministries which no doubt fuels the detractors of Christians in the limelight.
The question really comes down to motive. Joining “Christian Hollywood,” wherever you define that line to be, is something that should absolutely not be aimed for. Some of the most idolatrous people that I have met are those trying to get famous. It’s dangerous to even think of it as “fame;” I prefer the operative word “influence.” There is certainly nothing wrong with influence if your motives are to see the lost saved and the church edified. We are all sinners with the tendency to think we “deserve” something and we want to be recognized. This part of our insecure pride is probably unavoidable, but the temptation is manageable if you rely and lean on the grace of God alone. We could all go the Kirk Cameron Fireproof route and smash our computers or avoid technology like the Amish, but I think it’s much more helpful to pray and beg the Spirit to break our egos.
In relation to blogging, Twitter, Facebook, etc., I think Jared made a great admission in an earlier question when he stated, “Obviously I am interested in some level of influence, or else I wouldn’t post my thoughts in public forums for others to read.” If you own a blog or frequently post on social networking sites, then the chances are that you desire to be heard. I don’t think that this desire should be demonized, but you should be sensitive to what is driving this desire. Is it to be the next John Piper and see your name on books, or is it to use your God-given writing talents or theological insights to see the Kingdom advanced? I always remind myself of this: God has given me X number of blog readers, Twitter followers, Facebook friends, and other contacts in order to glorify Him and fulfill the Great Commission in whatever small or large way He has granted me to do so. I would be remiss to prostitute His gifts for my own gain.
*TREVIN WAX: Brandon, I agree that there is nothing inherently evil in thinking you have something valuable to say. Everyone who ever preaches or teaches could be accused of pride if that were the case. Dave Harvey’s Rescuing Ambition has been helpful to me in thinking through the ways that ambition can be harnessed for the glory of God. Yet, I must admit that however much we try, even our best motives are tainted by sin. If we think they aren’t, we deceive ourselves. So blogging (like teaching, preaching, writing, etc.) must take place within a context of continual repentance, with the added hope of stewarding wisely whatever amount of influence God gives us.
*STEVE MCCOY: I think it’s complicated. Some famous Christians are shaming Christ and others are making Him known. Some are getting rich off books for selfish reasons and others are providing resources that are changing lives. Fame seems to be associated with pride, yet some of the famous Christians who have influenced me most are known because they are generous and humble and speak with a sense of God and eternity.
___
What are some practical ways that social media and blogging can benefit churches, church leaders, and their audience?
*JARED WILSON: My experience mirrors Steve’s fairly closely except for his last statement on receiving visitors based on web-based information. I live in an area where very few adults are on social media. Many are on Facebook, particularly teenagers, but virtually no one’s on Twitter. There is a sizable minority here in rural Vermont who aren’t on the Internet or don’t even have a computer. And then among those over 30 who access the web, they are rarely on any kind of social media.
Interview with Trevin Wax
Posted: April 26, 2010 Filed under: Interviews, SBC 1 Comment »
After seeing glowing endorsements from J.I. Packer, Al Mohler, and Ed Stetzer for his new book, Holy Subversion, I decided to find out who Trevin Wax was. I began to read his blog, Kingdom People, and saw what these other men saw: a true man of God with a great ability to articulate his thoughts about theology, Christian culture, and the SBC. Once I saw his speech at the 2010 Band of Bloggers along side Jared Wilson and Jon McIntosh, I knew I had to have him share some thoughts with Modern March.
Brandon Smith: Tell us a little about your testimony and calling to ministry.
Trevin Wax: I first placed my trust in Christ when I was very young. I remember speaking with my mom and asking her about salvation, and then calling my pastor, excited about the news. For those of us who were saved at young ages, it is often difficult to think of a “before” and “after” with regard to our conversion. So I like to think in terms of trajectory. What would my life look like today had I not trusted in Christ at that time? That’s when I’m overwhelmed by the grace of God, not only that he saved me, but that he saved me so early!
My call to ministry was progressive, beginning as a teenager involved in mission work and leading me to eventually move to Romania for five years. From the time I was 19, the question was no longer, “Should I do ministry?” but “What ministry should I do?”
B: The title of your book is Holy Subversion, what does it mean for the Christian to live “subversively?”
T: To subvert means to put something back in its proper place. As Christians, we are called to live according to the lordship of Jesus Christ.
To live subversively for Jesus means that our lives should undermine the other loyalties vying for primacy. Many times, these other loyalties are not bad in and of themselves. Money, sex, recreation, power, etc… these are all good gifts from God. But we humans have the tendency to take God’s good gifts and invest them with ultimate significance. When we begin living for money, sex, recreation, success, etc… these gifts become idols that enslave us and rob God of his glory.
To live subversively for Christ means that we as Christians will identify the prevailing idolatries of our culture and then deliberately subvert those idolatries by the way we live.
B: Your book seems to hinge around the idea that discipleship strengthens evangelism. How so?
I believe the Church is often neglected as an evangelistic strategy. When churches live subversively for Christ, showing up the idolatries of the world as the phonies they are and demonstrating that Jesus is King, we provide space for people to witness the life of the kingdom in action. We add credibility to our evangelistic activities, and our understanding of evangelism itself is strengthened as well.
Once local churches are filled with people who are seeking to subvert the Caesars of this world, perhaps the church’s mission will also be strengthened, as we become a foretaste of the future, spreading the fragrance of new creation into the world. Then, our evangelism can be strengthened as it is backed up by a community of faith seeking to live in the way of Jesus.
B: What lead you to start your blog and what do you hope to accomplish with it?
T: I’ve wanted to be a writer since I was six years old. When I started blogging (back in 2004, and then regularly at my current site in 2006), it was just a hobby that helped me keep up my writing skills.
The best way to allow the blog to be a help rather than a hindrance to pursuing Christ is to see it as an act of service. About a year ago, I told a friend of mine that blogging was just a personal hobby, but my real ministry was serving the people in my local congregation. He challenged me to wake up and realize that the blog was an important extension of my ministry. The blog is like writing, or speaking, or any other avenue of communication. The goal should be to serve others well in the name of Christ and bring glory to his name.
B: What do you think is the most dangerous enemy of the Gospel today?
T: Christianity without repentance. More and more, I see Christians – even evangelical Christians – watering down the biblical notion of repentance, so that one can claim the name of Christ without any life transformation. Sadly, when the gravity of our sin is missing, so is the wonder of God’s grace.
B: What is the most crucial advice you could give someone who is reading the Bible or studying theology for the first time?
T: Read the Bible first. Start with the Scriptures, perhaps a good study Bible, and then begin studying theology after you’ve read through the Bible at least once. As you study theology, find some trustworthy guides. Start with popular level books of basic Christian doctrine. Then, as you progress in speaking the language of Christian theology, you can dive into harder and more substantive works. Just make sure you read more than one scholar, since it’s helpful to hear from different perspectives so that you do not impose one theologian’s view on the text of Scripture.
Trevin is the associate pastor of First Baptist Church in Shelbyville, Tennessee. He is author of the book Holy Subversion (available here) and blogs at Kingdom People.
Interview with Jonathan McIntosh
Posted: March 1, 2010 Filed under: Interviews | Tags: Christ, Christianity, interview, Jesus, Jonathan McIntosh 1 Comment »
Jonathan was on staff for five years as a pastor and teacher at The Journey, a missional church in St. Louis that is part of The Acts 29 Network. He also worked closely with Acts 29, co-leading a region to recruit, coach, and encourage church planters throughout the Midwest. Jonathan also created The Journey’s cultural engagement ministries that have attracted media attention worldwide. Jonathan is planting a new church in Memphis, Tennessee (Christ City Church) set to launch in Fall 2010. His website, Rethink Mission, is one of the leading websites on church planting.
Brandon Smith: Tell us a little about your testimony and calling to ministry.
Jonathan McIntosh: I grew up in a conservative church in the South – but during and after high school deeply rebelled – walking away from my faith, my God, and my church. It was a couple of years later that I experienced authentic Christian community. A group of Christian college students visibly demonstrated the power of the Gospel to me by loving God, loving each other, and loving me – even though I was different than them. They were clean cut college students… and I was a sinner. They just kept reaching out and loving me and they didn’t let my very visible sin get in the way. At one point after I was arrested for a DUI, I thought that this would surely be their chance to write me off, but they didn’t. God used them in a significant way in my life, and largely due to their care for me, I was able to walk out of a life of destructive sin and begin to see what it would be like to follow Christ.
As a new Christian, I moved away from this group and found out quickly that I did not have the willpower to be a Christian on my own. I knew that I needed a group, so as a new Christian and alone in my new town, I started a group, a Bible study for people like me. That’s how I stumbled into Christian ministry. God took a weakness in me, an inability to “do” Christianity on my own and my deep need for community, and turned it into a strength. This is what I do and all I can imagine doing with my life, building communities of grace, where people come alive because of the power of the gospel.
B: At the Cultivate Conference, you told us an interesting and powerful story about your Acts 29 assessment with Mark Driscoll, could you please retell it for my readers?
J: As a new church planter in 2004, I showed up for an Acts 29 boot camp looking for guidance and funding. My church had struggled to grow past 40, despite a committed core team. Driscoll asked me why. I blamed my over-churched town in Mississippi. but Driscoll didn’t buy it.
Then he looked at my wife and said, “Ashley, honey, you tell me what’s going on in your opinion. I want you to be honest with me. Look me in the eyes and tell me the truth. At first she gave stock answers. But then she completely broke right there. “My husband is off doing this church-planting thing. I’m stuck in this job I hate, slaving away to support us. People are in and out of our apartment at all hours of the night. I’m losing my husband to this thing. I’m miserable. It’s sapping my joy for life, my love for God, and my respect for my husband.”
Wow. At that point, needless to say, I was pretty sure Acts 29 wouldn’t get behind our church. Then Driscoll unloaded on me. “You’re a good-looking, eloquent, hip, Bible-teaching, Jesus-loving [wimp]. You think you can lead and love God’s bride when you can’t lead and love your own bride? The issue with your church is you and your marriage. Everyone knows it. You’re photocopying your marriage. That’s your church, and that’s why it’s jacked up. How dare you.”
It was beautiful. He told us to get away that night, get a hotel room, dinner, send him the bill, and for us to begin the repentance process right then: me repenting to Ashley for not loving and leading her well and Ashley repenting for her bitterness. God used that day and that encounter to save my marriage. It was a wake-up call from Jesus.
B: How did your ministry, Rethink Mission, come about?
J: Rethink Mission is an outlet for my own writing and speaking. It was formed around the realization that pastors that I knew were having one of two “conversions.”
The first was a conversion toward a gospel-centered approach in their preaching, spirituality, counseling, and overall ministry. And by gospel-centered, I mean essentially grace based. The idea that grace changes everything, and no true growth or change can happen apart from being firmly rooted in the gospel of grace found in the finished work of Christ on our behalf.
The second conversion I noticed pastors were having was a missional conversion. Pastors in the West began to wake up to the idea that church could not continue as usual if we were going to reach what has effectively become a post-Christian culture around us… That the God calls us to incarnate or embody the gospel by taking it outside the walls of the church to the least, lost, broken and marginalized.
B: A big issue with many churches is that the church becomes a “holy huddle” that tends to hinder evangelism. What are your thoughts on how the church should relate to its city?
J: The church, like Israel, was called and chosen by God for a reason. Israel was blessed to be a blessing – to be a light to the nations. They quickly lost sight of this, however, when they became inwardly focused and prideful about their ethnic and religious distinctives.
The same goes for the church. We are called in order to be sent back out into the world on mission. When we loose sight of this, when church becomes a social club, or a welcoming place only to the people who look, dress, and vote like us, then we’ve forgotten the whole purpose of the church. How is your town, city, or village different because of the presence of your local church? If its hard for you to say, then it is time for repentance and recalibration.
B: How would you advise a congregant of the church to “do their part” in evangelizing to their city?
J: To the individual congregant – whether or not you are a part of a missional church – you are called to be on mission where you are. Many look around at their current station in life and think that they are where they are because of a combination of choices and chances. That view fails to take into consideration that a sovereign God has been working behind the scenes of their lives to place them in their work place, in the school that they go to, or in the neighborhood where they live – for a purpose. Scripture is clear – you are called to be a missionary where you are… you don’t have to cross a cultural boundary to do that.
Think through – “Who are the people that I come in contact with on a regular basis – family, friends, barista, bag boy at the grocery store?” Secondly – “How can I in a tangible way serve these people?” Lastly – “Which of these people am I called to pursue and have further conversations about spiritual issues?”
B: What advice would you give to a young pastor who feels that God wants him to make major changes in his church, but has a resistant congregation?
J: -Take it slow. The only thing that people resist more than change is change made quickly or recklessly.
-Do it lovingly. Seek to understand the people that might be the most resistant to change, hear them out, listen to the fears underneath what’s being said.
-Don’t make stupid change. I define “stupid change” by unnecessary change or change for change’s sake. Often young pastors will try to make their churches into a bad copy of a famous church that they’ve been to or read about – when in reality this would not be the best expression of church for their current culture.
-Don’t die on a non-essential hill. Change needs to be rooted in the gospel and mission. Don’t fight over stuff that’s not central to one of those issues.
Even after all of this, a young pastor may have to leave his existing congregation to go a plant a new church from scratch.
B: What is the most crucial advice you could give someone who is reading the Bible or studying theology for the first time?
J: Look for Jesus. Look for the redemptive angle – even in the Old Testament. Covenant Seminary President Bryan Chapell says that every single passage of scripture is redemptive in one of four ways: “Every text is predictive of the work of Christ, preparatory for the work of Christ, reflective of the work of Christ, and/or resultant of the work of Christ.”
As you study, learn to look for echoes of Christ and him crucified.
Interview with Jared C. Wilson
Posted: January 28, 2010 Filed under: Interviews | Tags: Christ, Christianity, interview, Jared Wilson, Jesus 3 Comments »
At the end of the last summer, I went into LifeWay to buy a book by John MacArthur. The problem was, that book didn’t come out for another few days, and I was impatient and wanted a book on Jesus. After looking around a bit, I ran across one of the displays for a new book called Your Jesus is Too Safe. I had never heard of author Jared C. Wilson at the time, but the content that I skimmed through seemed great. So, I bought it and realized quickly that God wanted me to read that book (of course He did… He predestined it, right? ;) ). After reading this book, my view of Jesus was raised exponentially. After reading his book and blog (The Gospel-Driven Church), Jared became one of my favorite pastors to read and listen to, and his Tweets are always great as himself and the infamous Fake John Piper (@fakejohnpiper). After a few conversations here and there, I asked Jared to do an interview for us and he graciously agreed.
Brandon Smith: Tell us a little about your testimony and calling to ministry.
Jared Wilson: I was raised in the church. I walked the aisle, made a decision, and got baptized at six years old, then did it again at 12 years old after those 70′s rapture movies scared the fire out of me. I was deathly afraid if I wasn’t super-sure I’d asked Jesus into my heart, the antichrist was going to cut my head off. And this sort of colored my Christian walk throughout my adolescence. I was a believer, but a timid, fearful, neurotic, clinging-to-life-insurance one. It wasn’t until real life kicked in, after I was married, had kids, and hit the rock bottom of my own sinfulness in a period of great depression in my early 30s. I was struck by my depravity, my failure, and pondered whether the world would be better off without my presence. In this time, the Spirit was very sweet to my heart despite being very rough with everything else and I had one of those Peter “To whom shall I go?” moments where I was out of options and Christ was truly my only hope. From then on, I have grown in the confidence of the good news that God is for me in Jesus.
I believe God called me into vocational ministry between my 8th and 9th grade years. It was a summer youth camp experience, of all things, but all week long I believed God wanted me to be a minister “when I grew up,” and then at the end of the week, the camp pastor in the altar call invited anyone who believed God was calling them into ministry to come forward. I’d never in my invitational life heard anyone issue that sort of invitation before, and I took it as confirmation that what I had been hearing all week was true. My understanding of “calling” has evolved since then, of course, but I have never doubted since then that God has wired me up to and commanded me to serve in ministry, even during the 9 years or so when I didn’t serve any vocational capacity.
B: In Your Jesus is Too Safe, you describe the Gospel as scandalous. Explain that one.
J: Well, it’s scandalous on the primary level of content, because it demands we accept that God’s Son, who is God himself, died, and that through this death we are forgiven from sins, something our own good efforts can’t do. So that’s a scandal to the flesh.
It’s scandalous also because it demands we accept that this dead God-Man came back to life to triumph over death for us, and everybody knows dead people don’t come back to life and that we all die.
The Bible guarantees this scandal when it says the message of the cross is foolishness. It knows seeing death as the way to life sounds absurd.
But it’s also scandalous because believing it presupposes our dying to our selves, which is something intelligent and “good” people don’t want to do. It goes against our nature to take up our cross, so the call to do that is scandalous.
And it’s always scandalous on the practical level, because living a life centered on the gospel and full of the gospel’s power has us doing things like forgiving people who’ve wronged us, accepting people who aren’t popular or clean or financially advantageous, etc. A gospel-centered life is counter-cultural; it is an offense to people moving according to the way of the world.
B: You told me recently that you were expecting to release your next book/Bible study resource, Abide. Tell us about that.
J: Yeah, it is scheduled for release April 1 (and that is not an April fool’s). It’s a short book/Bible study hybrid sort of thing, which is the specialty of the publisher, Threads Media, who also published Ed Stetzer’s missional Bible study SENT and some other stuff by Jason Hayes and Margaret Feinberg. They are aimed primarily at young adults 18-30′s, but that is mostly a packaging/aesthetic thing, I think. Certainly the material would work with adults of all ages, and probably even upper level youth.
Abide pulls mostly from the Sermon on the Mount, but attempts to answer the question, “How would living the kingdom of God look in the middle of suburbia or other heavily consumerist environments?” And so it takes what I call the 5 kingdom rhythms — Feeling Scripture, Intentional Prayer, Joyful Fasting, Generous Service, and Community — and goes through how to think about and implement those things in the middle of a culture that often shapes our thinking and values another way. One of the unique things about the book, though, is that it is not the typical behavioristic approaches to spiritual disciplines or formation; I tried really hard to center the sessions on the gospel, so it is really a gospel-driven approach to spiritual formation, with lots of learning who you are in Christ and seeing these “things to do” with a sense of Sabbath rest given by the gospel. And that’s why the book is called Abide.
B: I have heard you use the term “Gospel wakefulness,” could you describe that?
J: This is something that has been a passion of mine for the last 3 years or so and should be for the rest of my life. It’s a timely question too, because the book I’m working on now, my official follow-up to Your Jesus is Too Safe, is tentatively titled Gospel Wakefulness: Treasuring Christ and Savoring His Power.
I boil down gospel wakefulness to a sort of quantum leap in how greatly a believer treasures what Christ has accomplished and how sweetly it tastes to his wakened heart. It is neither synonymous with conversion nor really a “second conversion” experience, although for many it is simultaneous with conversion or for others might feel like a second conversion experience. I think it is something that God does at the intersection of our bottomed-out brokenness and the hearing with open ears and seeing with open eyes and feeling with a broken heart the fuller truth of the gospel. I think it’s when the personal gospel goes cosmic in scope for us personally. It is that moment when the prodigal son “came to his senses” in the pig sty, or when the one leper out of ten healed returned to give thanks. But it’s not merely an emotional thing, something transitory. It’s something that the Spirit does to waken us to the astounding wonder of the gospel, in which all other things of this world grow dim and lose their idolatrous luster.
I’m asked not infrequently how to get it. I don’t think you can “get” it; you have to dwell in the gospel daily and ask God to deepen your affections for him, but my theory is that the way God usually brings gospel wakefulness is in times of intense suffering, brokenness, or grief. Most people I know who have what I’d call gospel wakefulness received it during or as a result of some personal brokenness in their life. I’m going to share some of these stories in the book.
B: What do you think is the most dangerous enemy of the Gospel today?
J: Two things: the willfulness of our own hearts to sin and our susceptibility to the devil’s false accusations against our righteousness in Christ.
B: What is the most crucial advice you could give someone who is reading the Bible or studying theology for the first time?
J: Don’t lose sight of Jesus. Keep your theology tethered to Jesus. I am a big doctrine nerd. Debates, discussions, the big books, the whole nine yards. But most of my college years and early to mid twenties were spent heavily invested in things like the rapture, Calvinism, etc. and I wasn’t any closer to loving Jesus or being awed by the gospel for any of it.
I think even being right on the details takes us off the rails in our investment in the Spirit’s work of sanctification when we get Jesus out on the periphery. Don’t talk about eschatology without centering on Christ the King and the gospel of the kingdom. Don’t talk about predestination and free will without centering on Christ who is before all things and in all things and holding all things together and sustaining the world by his powerful word. Don’t get into Old Testament genealogies and sacrificial systems and feasts and festivals and Canaanite slaughters without centering on Christ the fulfillment, Christ the sacrifice, Christ the abundant provision, Christ the joy, and Christ the judge and ruler, the bringer of division and the prince of peace. Winning the theological battles while losing the Christological war is a loss all around.
Jared is the pastor at Middletown Springs Community Church in Middletown Springs, Vermont and author of the book Your Jesus is Too Safe, available here. He also writes a blog called The Gospel-Driven Church.
Interview with Andrew Farley
Posted: July 3, 2009 Filed under: Book & Media Reviews, Interviews | Tags: Andrew Farley, Christ, Christianity, faith, Jesus, The Naked Gospel 14 Comments »
I was searching recently online for a new book to read when I came across an advertisement for Zondervan’s The Naked Gospel (available for pre-order at a discount here and in bookstores everywhere September 1, 2009) . I read some reviews and visited the website and was intrigued by the author, Andrew Farley. After a several discussions via Facebook (ah, the power of social networking), I was able to ask him a few questions about his book and some questions regarding his faith.
Brandon Smith: Your unusual faith journey includes an addiction to street evangelism and Bible study that led to a debilitating depression. Tell us your story.
Andrew Farley: Yeah, I found myself lying on the floor of my apartment, begging God for answers. I was saying, “God, I’m doing everything they say to do. I’m reading my Bible four or five hours a day. I’m sharing my faith with everybody I meet. I’m at church every time the doors are open. But I still don’t feel like I’m growing spiritually. I’m stalled, and I can’t explain why. You say the truth will set me free. I’m anything but free!”
I needed God to start all over with me, and He did. Although I was already a Christian, my belief system was poisoned with religiosity. Over the next ten years, I began replacing old thoughts with new thoughts. And it changed everything for me.
Back then, if I were honest and vulnerable, my sales pitch would have been, “Would you like to become a Christian and be miserable like me?” But today I’d wish my Christian experience on everyone. I’ve learned some radical, Scriptural truths that were right there in the Bible, that I never knew existed. That’s why I wrote The Naked Gospel – to share with others the radical truths that absolutely revolutionized my life.
B: The central theme of your book is “Jesus plus nothing.” How has the contemporary church added to Jesus, in your opinion?
A: Some are saying “Jesus plus baptism.” Others are saying “Jesus plus tithing.” Others are saying “Jesus plus tongues.” And some are even saying, “Jesus plus Judaism!” Although baptisms, giving, and spiritual gifts are part of healthy church life, I think we need to be clearer about the powerful truths of the core gospel message.
The Naked Gospel was written to serve as an intravenous shot of unadulterated truth that will stir us and perhaps even rattle some of us into considering how we’ve added to the gospel and hindered the pure power of “Jesus plus nothing” in our everyday lives.
B: Why do you say that Christians should have no relationship with the Ten Commandments?
A: When Paul describes the law as a ministry of condemnation, he notes that the law was “in letters engraved on stones.” Clearly, he’s talking about the Ten Commandments. So, the Ten will only minister condemnation – to the saved and to the lost.
Of course, people will argue the importance of the Ten Commandments for Christian living today. But just ask them, “What did you do last Saturday?” If they did any work of any kind, then they disobeyed one of the Big Ten. They might say, “Well we’re free from the Sabbath now.” My reply, “So then, it’s the Nine Commandments that we’re still under?”
We Christians dice up God’s law to get it the way we like it. But the reality is that the law is an all-or-nothing proposition. James tells us that even if we keep the whole law and stumble in only one point, we are guilty of all of it. We don’t have the right to cherry pick, selecting the parts that are comfortable for us.
It’s 600+ Jewish commands and regulations, or it’s total freedom to serve in the newness of the Spirit. The choice is ours. But there’s no room for selecting from the law here and there and imposing a few on Christians. That makes no sense at all.
The Jewish Law, including the Ten Commandments, is perfect in every way. It’s so perfect that nobody can live up to it! It’s actually designed to allow sin to thrive in our lives, to convict us of that sin, and to point us to our need for Jesus Christ.
After we receive Jesus, all we need is Jesus. He produces the love, patience, and self-control we need for daily living. After the salvation experience, any return to the law or another rule-based system is essentially “cheating on Jesus.”
B: You note that the New Testament contains no instance of the Holy Spirit “convicting” Christians of their sin. How does behavior improve then for the Christian?
A: Yeah, it may be surprising to hear such a claim given all the rhetoric we toss around about the Holy Spirit convicting us Christians. But the reality is that the root “convict” only shows up about eight times in the whole Bible. And the term is never used to describe how the Holy Spirit interacts with Christians.
The word “convict” means ‘to find guilty.’ Convicts are people who have been found guilty and are living out their punishment in prison. Why would the Holy Spirit convict us, or find us guilty, when He has already said, “your sins and lawless acts I will remember no more”?
God has chosen to forget our sins. And our forgiveness is expressed in past tense – we “have been forgiven.” It’s a completed act. Therefore, for God to drum up our past is inconsistent with the core Gospel message itself.
Of course, the Holy Spirit is our Counselor, our Comforter, and our Guide into all truth. So how does our behavior improve? By these very means! How can we doubt whether personal counsel from the God of the Universe is sufficient for daily living?
On top of that, does dwelling on our past and having our sins tallied up in our minds really help us do any better? I think it has the opposite effect. If we dig up our past sins, we only continue to see ourselves as dirty, rotten sinners. Then, guess how we’ll live? Like dirty, rotten sinners!
The whole point of the gospel is that we’ve been cleansed and we now have a brand new identity as saints. So, what is the Holy Spirit doing? God’s Spirit is praying on our behalf and bearing witness with us about our new identity.
Who wants “conviction” when we’ve got total forgiveness combined with the best Life Coach anyone could ever ask for? The Naked Gospel talks about how all of this plays out.
B: You claim that it’s unbiblical and insulting to God if Christians ask for forgiveness when they sin. Isn’t forgiveness one of the essentials of Christian belief? Explain that one.
A: Yes, the phrases “ask forgiveness” and “ask for forgiveness” are entirely absent from all New Testament epistles. It has never been about making promises to God, trying harder, or listing every sin on a legal pad and waiting to be cleansed afterward.
Although it’s very religious to ask for forgiveness, it totally ignores the work of the cross. Jesus took away our sins and cleansed us “once for all.” To ask, plead, beg, and wait for a new portion of cleansing to come our way is to ignore what Jesus said from the cross: “It is finished.”
Yes, we should turn from every sin we commit. Yes, we should be honest and open about our struggles before God. But we should also be honest and straightforward about the blood of Jesus and what it accomplished – an unconditional, irrevocable, one-time cleansing from all our sins!
Requesting forgiveness is not the same as thanking God for the cleansing we already have. Now that forgiveness has been accomplished, our job is to relish the work of Jesus Christ and to deem it “enough.”
As we rest in the finished work of the Son, we please the Father.
B: You say that Christians won’t be judged for their sins when they die. What do you say to those who mention that Scripture clearly indicates a final judgment for all of humanity?
A: Jesus was judged for our sins. Jesus was judged guilty as he “became sin,” and the just punishment was death. That punishment was carried out in full on the cross. So why would we be judged for our sins if Jesus was already judged for them? It just makes no sense.
Still, there are all kinds of popular teachings out there about Judgment Day and the need for “godly fear” among Christians concerning that day. I’ve even heard some say that they gauge the effectiveness of a sermon by how guilty they feel when they leave! The gospel should have the opposite effect on Christians.
Of course, there is a final judgment, but the question is: What does it look like? The Naked Gospel explores passages about judgment. It shows why we Christians don’t have to fear the return of Christ for any reason.
If we fear punishment of any kind, the Apostle John says we need to be more “perfected in love.” That’s the intent of my book – to help people get more rooted in the unbelievable love of God.
B: You pastor a growing church in West Texas called Ecclesia (the Greek word for “church”). What would you say sets your church apart from any other contemporary church?
A: Our philosophy is “Church Without Religion.”
Ever since the days of the early church, we Christians have become very adept at adding to the gospel message and thereby making church a very “religious” experience. But Christianity was never intended to meet our ill-perceived need for religion. Instead, Christianity is primarily about restoring to us what we lost in Eden. At that time, there were no church buildings, or services, or Bibles, of course.
So, if Christianity is not primarily about Sunday morning or new building projects or studying a book for self-improvement, then what’s it all about? It’s about receiving and displaying God’s divine life on a moment-by-moment basis. And it’s about freedom to serve from a heartfelt motive, not out of any religious obligation.
In The Naked Gospel, I talk about Christ, not just as our Savior and Lord, but also as our Life. I talk about what that really means for “church life” and for an individual’s daily life.
B: What is the most crucial advice you could give someone who is reading the Bible or studying theology for the first time?
A: I’d highlight the Great Divide. It’s not baby Jesus lying in the manger in Matthew 1 that changed everything for us. But with our “New Testament” divider page placed just before Matthew 1, we Christians can lose sight of the fact that Jesus’ death, not his birth, initiated the New Testament era (see Hebrews 9:16-17).
Therefore, Jesus was born under law. And much of Jesus’ teaching was aimed at redeeming those who were under law (Galatians 4:4-5). He told them to gouge out their eyes and cut off their hands in their fight against sin. Pretty high standards, I think.
If we Christians were truly following those teachings, and not watering them down or dismissing them, today’s churches would look much like an amputation ward at the local hospital. Instead, we recognize on some level that Jesus was placing demands on his Jewish listeners that were just too great.
We see this with the Sermon on the Mount, and with the rich man too. Jesus told him to sell everything. Sell everything, really? Yes, Jesus said to sell everything in order to enter the kingdom.
But today, we don’t preach this. You’ll never see an evangelist telling people to go home and list all their belongings on eBay in order to enter the Kingdom. Why not? Those are Jesus’ own words, aren’t they? On some level, we all recognize that Jesus’ death, not His birth in Matthew 1, changed everything for us.
In The Naked Gospel, I talk about the sweeping implications of this dividing line for how we study the Bible – the teachings of Jesus in particular – and how we relate to God and live life.
B: What reactions have you received from the book so far?
A: When some hear they can be free from religion and only need Jesus for daily living, they call the idea “naive.” When some hear that Christians are totally forgiven for all sins – past, present, and future – no matter what, they actually get mad. They call that one a “license to sin” and “heresy.”
I call it the Gospel. If you’re not being falsely accused of promoting a “license to sin” then you’re probably not teaching the Gospel. The Apostle Paul was falsely accused of speaking out against Moses and the law. He also had to constantly answer this one: “Well, then, why don’t we just go out and sin so that grace can increase?”
We Christians should be accused of these things on a regular basis. Otherwise, I’m afraid we’re peddling a powerless gospel of “Jesus plus something.”
So far, The Naked Gospel has received one of two reactions – people love it or hate it. I’ve been called a heretic. I’ve even been told that the book will “destroy America’s churches.” But I’ve also heard lots of people say things like, “it totally changed my life,” and “I’ll never be the same again.”
It’s no fun to be accused, but it’s very rewarding to see people go free. It appears that some may speak out against the book. But it also appears that the book will free lots of people to enjoy the simple, powerful message of “Jesus Plus Nothing.”
And that’s what it’s all about.
*Andrew is the lead teaching pastor of Ecclesia, a growing church on the high plains of West Texas and also co-author of A Climate for Change: Global Warming Facts for Faith-Based Decisions (FaithWords, October 2009). He co-hosts Real Life in Christ, a thought-provoking television program that airs every Wednesday morning on ABC-TV in West Texas. He lives in Lubbock, Texas with his wife Katharine and their son, Gavin.
To watch or listen to some of Andrew’s teaching, visit www.EcclesiaOnline.com
To pre-order The Naked Gospel for $10.19 ($14.99 retail) click here.
